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Dakota Performance
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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10/10/2002
16:43:30
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 Subject: HO Parts G-Tech
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Well I don't have results yet for the HO Manifold cause I haven't put it on yet but .. here's the 'G-Tech' results from the cams alone:
average decrease in E.T. 0.2 seconds
average increase in mph 2.5 mph
best decrease in E.T. 0.5 seconds
best increase in mph 4.5 mph
average hp increase 14.5
average drop in 0-60 time: 0.1 sec (this should be a bigger drop but I was driving like a retard and didn't hook up that good on a lot of the runs .. best drop in 0-60 was .35 sec)
I'll report on the HO manifold after this weekend ... I'm expecting another 0.1 drop in the E.T. and maybe a mph or 2 increase ... who knows though.
Some background: it was 12*C outside (54*F) and the tests were performed at about 3900 feet elevation .. barometric pressure was normal (~1atm corrected)
I did about 9-10 runs total.
I know I know ... its only a G-Tech and the results aren't set in stone, nor would I bet my first born on their accuracy .. but its something. Hope someone finds it useful.
l8r!
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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10/15/2002
11:10:03
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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Note sure if anyone has even read my first post .. but:
Preliminary results after the intake:
gained another 2 tenths of a second in the G-Tech 1/4 mile.
That was only after two runs. The biggest difference is the move of the torque curve. With the HO cams alone, there were gobs and gobs of low end torque. So much so that I couldn't hook up for a decent 1/4 run .. I was really inconsistent: +/-.2 or .3 seconds. With the intake, it took away a LOT of that low end tq. but the gains in the higher RPMs were phenomenal. The low end tq. is probably back to where it was before any HO parts. My theory: the cams were designed to replenish the low end tq. back to where it was before the HO manifold, and the HO manifold was designed to get some more high end hp outta the engine, at the sacrifice of the low end.
I've put a few hundred kms on the whole package now so I'll be out testing them again soon, with more 0-60 times and 'hp' reports
l8r!
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CW
GenIII
10/15/2002
14:31:06
|  RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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We are paying attention.:)
4.7 HO, CW style
2001 4.7 5sp 3.92 LSD
Ported 68mm TB, IAT adjuster, 3" flowmaster cat back, TPS @ .76V, 4" Z-tube, Roadmaster active suspention, Removed Third cat, Electric fan Convertion, HO cams, Robert shaw 180 therm, HO intake manifold.
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handi2
GenIII
10/15/2002
14:34:20
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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Canucker,
Good job, keep it up.
http://photos.yahoo.com/handi254310
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yates-in-DE
GenIII
10/15/2002
15:55:09
|  RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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Canucker,
I don't gotta g-tech here, all I got is the butt dyno. I know mine has hell with traction. in the last video I made for Alex more or less to show the rpm range of the Kenne Bell Flash compared to his flash, I did a 0-60 on the last one of 3 runs. If you listen close you will here it roasting the tires hard in first gear and that had no rpm load up at all. The tires were warm or even hot and actually stuck really good compared to other times.
Some fast Launches
I have done the cams and not the intake. I plan on doing this when I get on the other side of the big pond soon.
But listen to the last one carefully and notice I'm just nailling it from a stop, no load up.
Later,
MyVW Killer
Lynn
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alex
Dodge Dakota
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10/15/2002
16:43:04
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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Some other results:
I did the cams, the intake manifold and added FMS 21# injectors all on the same day in Matt Barret's garage. Thanks Matt.
My ET's prior to the swap were at 14.98 @ 90.54 mph.
Here are the mods to the truck:
70 mm TB
Volant Cool Air Tube w/ no filter (track only)
Flap Removed (track only)
Clutch Fan Removed
180 t-stat
Front Tires at 50 psi (track only)
5 gals of gas
Leach Flash
Custom Slapper Bars
Mickey ET Streets in a 28x10.5-15 (track only)
Tonneau Cover
Short Belt that misses P/S & Alternator (track only)
3" exhaust all the way back (w/ 3" cat)
I was launching at 3000 rpm, side-stepping the clutch and shifting at 5200 rpm. The truck weighed 4150 with me in it, and has a 3.55 posi rear.
After the cams, intake, & injectors were installed, I bought a set of 26x10.5 ET Streets. That means the 3.55 rear gear becomes a 3.88 rear gear (close to a 3.90), so these ET's are partially because of a "gear change."
The new ET's came out at a 14.66 @ 92.54 mph.
I was launching at 3000 rpm, side-stepping the clutch and shifting at 5200 rpm. The truck weighed 4150 with me in it, but now with the 3.88 posi rear.
I was able to repeat the 14.98 numerous times and repeat the 14.66 twice. So that's a multi-run average of a .32 sec gain in the 1/4 mile.....
Then I took it to the dyno. I have no "before" numbers, but this is what it ran that day:
No Air Filter
No Clutch Fan
Volant Tube
No Flap
Short Belt
3" Exhaust
Leach Flash
HO Cams
HO Intake
21# injectors
70 mm TB
180 t-stat
Raining Outside in open dyno cell
233 hp & 301 tq at the rear wheels.
Here's the glitch: The Leach Flash has soemthing wrong that I suspect is where the rev limiter is still in place at ~5500 to 5700. It'll rev up to 6000 in neutral, but it won't rev any higher than 5500 in gear under load. Period. It stutters bucks and pukes until you shift it. That's why Lynn's video's are handy. Still want to find out what happens on the dyno at 6000 rpm. When i am racing and don't shift at about 5200, then it hits that limiter and stalls out hard enough to kill my momentum on the track. More work to be doen there....
The other glitch..... I got no A/F reading from the dyno run. I think the injectors are causign me to run rich in the upper rpm range. Need to get that info so that when i send my box back to Leach I can have him tailor the fuel curve at the saem time he fixes my rev limiter.
But it's a matter of scheduling out the downtime.
Soon, my children, soon.
Sorry for the frickin book.
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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10/15/2002
17:42:38
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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no, the book was great Alex....
curious though, what's this side-stepping the clutch you talk about?
and do you have any numbers on street tires (not slicks or 'cheater' slicks)?
Also, what altitude was the track?
Your truck is a RC right? or is it a CC?
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alex
Dodge Dakota
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10/15/2002
18:09:38
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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The Atlanta Dragway is at 1050' above sea level. The 14.6x's were run when it was about 90 degrees outside and hotter. I am looking forward to cool temps and low humidity, and I think I may see a 14.5 or 14.4 before the end of the season.
I'll have to look at time slips, but I think the fastest I got with street tires was a 15.18 @ 90.2x mph or something liek that. That's with a 2.24 short time. So it was a traction battle everytime. Most runs were at least in the 15.2x range for about 3-4 months on street tires. That was basically with the 70 mm TB, the Dynomax cat-back, the Volant Tube, and the short belt. And the old traction bars. Rears at 26 psi and fronts at 50 psi. No filter. Shifting at 5200 rpm. With about a 2000 rpm launch.
The truck's a ClubCab Sport with almost every SLT option on it. No power seat, no power mirrors. Everything else, though.
Sidestepping the clutch: Tach it up to 3000, then as the last yellow lights up, move your left foot horizontally over to the driver's door panel. Pow. Your brain comes out thru the head rest and you pull a 1.98 short time. Some guys like Matt Barret & Duner will show you 1.88 and 1.7x short times...... One tenth off your 60' time is worth three to four tenths off your ET. Launch is everything....
Technically, you dont' really SIDE-step the clutch pedal, you just don't delay any. It's easier on the clutch and brutal on the rest of the driveline when you have sticky tires and a good track. Despite my best efforts with a clutch dump, Duner is still able to school me on the launch with his technique which is described in this thread here:
http://www.moparchat.com/forums/showthread.php?s=a954d7705274383670512e5f01999de1&threadid=43471
Of course, he's got 3.90 gears and I've got 3.55 gears..... and he's got that little turbo thingie. But, I should be able to get a little better launch with the shorter tire. I just need to practice Duner's technique.
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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10/15/2002
18:49:20
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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turbo shmurbo ... who needs one!? :)
good stuff alex. thanks
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alex
Dodge Dakota
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10/15/2002
19:09:19
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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You bet.
As for who needs the schmurbo, well, um....
ME!
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yates-in-DE
GenIII
10/15/2002
19:27:17
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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I don't think I really need one, but I WANT ONE REAL BAD. Turbo that is.
Later,
MyVW Killer
Lynn
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CW
GenIII
10/15/2002
21:02:01
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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Yeah last I heard Duner was running a 12.2 with his turbo. That is fast.
4.7 HO, CW style
2001 4.7 5sp 3.92 LSD
Ported 68mm TB, IAT adjuster, 3" flowmaster cat back, TPS @ .76V, 4" Z-tube, Roadmaster active suspention, Removed Third cat, Electric fan Convertion, HO cams, Robert shaw 180 therm, HO intake manifold.
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alex
Dodge Dakota
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10/16/2002
08:49:31
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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No, he hasn't run the 12.2 yet.... but the Truckin Nationals are this weekend. Newly ported HO Heads, HO cams, and new clutch....?
Hmmmm.....
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Chris
Dodge Dakota
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10/16/2002
09:51:31
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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a tenthe in the 60' is worth 23-4 tenths at the end, DAMN i gotta work on my 2.5 60' times then huh? I was doing this with a fully loaded truck and running 16.0 at 87.5 MPH... The best 60' I've ever pulled is a 2.1 and I blew 2 shifts that day...
Chris
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alex
Dodge Dakota
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10/16/2002
10:39:54
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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Okay, maybe not a full 4 tenths, but let's say 2-3 tenths....
Yeah, it makes a BEEEG difference.
Get rid of any weight that's within reason... Spare tire, tailgate, loose crap in the interior, jack, jack handles, anything more than 5 gallons of gasoline, removable stereo tubes & amps, etc...
Then work on your launch. Try lower rpm's, higher rpms, clutch slipping, lower psi in the rear tires, higher psi in the front tires, and anything in between to really make it hook.
Get that 2.1 short time and dont' miss any shifts, and that 16.0 becomes a 15.3 or 15.2 ET in the exact same truck without any engine mods.
There's lots of ways to pick up a tenth here & a tenth there....
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Chris
Dodge Dakota
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10/16/2002
10:53:35
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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My problem is that I went up to the track only 2 times:
First time, basically stock, decent 60' times, well 2.3's and a 2.1... ran a best of 15.55 at 87
Second time, had the wife and a truckload of stuff, easy extra 300lb, just for fun so she could experience racing, ran 2.5's, best was a 2.49 and best run as a 15.97 @ 87.55
So I know I am making power I jsut need to put it down, but everyone was a few tenthe off their pace that night.
I am thinking my race weight was about 4750 lbs the second night, the first time it was 4400 with jsut me, if I lose the spare, tailgate, tools, and otehr stuff I can get down to about a 4200 race weight. with this extra power and some traction I should be in the high 14's without a problem. BUT i do not want to go to slicks as I drive 100+ miles to the track and need to drive it home afterward...
Chris
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alex
Dodge Dakota
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10/16/2002
11:10:58
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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Here's some more secret rules of thumb:
#1: For every 100 pounds you take off, that's another tenth off your ET. Give your wife a ride or two, because she thinks you're the coolest. Then when you really want to lay down the number, make her video tape you from behind the fence.
#2: For every 1 pound of unsprung weight, it's like removing 8-10 pounds of sprung weight. In other words, buy yourself a set of lightweight aluminum rims (like the ones that I have for sale) and then mount some slicks on there. The combo of my 15x8 factory wheel with my 275/60/15 Firehawk weighs 55 lbs. The 15x7 Prime 231 wheel that I have with a 26x10.5 DOT tire weighs 33 lbs. So with two of those mounted in the rear, it's like I took another 350 lb off the truck. Even though it weighs in at 4150, the engine has less wieght to turn, see?
Moral of the story, ET Streets cost $340 for the pair, I have a pair of Prime wheels that I will sell you for $150 (or $300 for all four), and then get yourself a floor jack from Pep Boys. They have a cheapie-cheap model for $18. Once you get to the track (on your street tires), you will look cool changing out your tires with all the other guys, too. Then just chain all your crap together so nobody steals it and go lay down a 15.00 or 14.99.... it's on the table waiting for you.
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Chris
Dodge Dakota
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10/16/2002
12:00:28
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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Alex,
Thanks, this is all stuff I already knew, but I am looking at 1-2 trips to the track a year so putting down even $200 for something that specific is DAMN EXPENSIVE... But I do figure that next time I go I am taking a friend so I can unload the truck and see if I can improve my launch and go for it. I am almost even against a short belt since it is not something I wil run on the street... But again that is me.
Thanks!
Chris
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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10/16/2002
12:00:51
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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Okay .. here's some more results .. they're not good. I'm glad this thread is turning into a good productive discussion though and not some flame thread (knock on wood).
Came back home to 3800' and did another 7 runs ... results were nearly identical to the first 10 runs I did here with the cams alone. Here's the results with the HO intake AND Cams:
Average change in ET = .02 lower (not even significant)
average change in mph = 1 mph down (I don't know why)
Average change in 0-60 = 0.05 higher
Average change in 'hp' = 1.5 higher
The reason I initially thought I gained another 2 tenths is because I was a heck of a lot more consistent with the manifold. and I found a better road with nice fresh asphault that was real sticky (I didn't have time to go back to location #1). So it dropped .2 from what I was running there.
So here's my theory: The HO Intake shifts the torque curve up the RPM scale, but robs a lot of low end TQ. The cams bring that TQ back up to where it should be. But the net gain is still only 2-3 tenths with the manifold giving you the advantage of hooking up better.
Looking at other ppl's dyno runs versus stock (yours alex, and Matt Barret's in particular) and versus my stock, you can see the effects of the combination: TQ stays at about 300, but hp goes up to 230-240 (I'm guessing 205-215 without the PCM flash .. i.e. ME) .. but my stock run was 300 ft-lbs @ 2800 RPM, I bet your peak Alex is at 3600RPM or so .. Matt's was at 3600-3700RPM
So what does it all mean? Clearly the HO cams are geared for low end TQ .. as is the stock manifold (duh). so I think the HO Cam/HO Intake Combination is a bad one for racing ... they basically cancel each other out in peak gain potential, rather than complementing each other for a combined net gain of 40hp or something .. they're basically fighting each other over where to lay down the torque .. high or low.
Look at the HO cam specs ... the exhaust lift is the same as the stock cams .. only the intake has more lift ... I'd expect huge gains out of a cam (say KRCs) with more exhaust lift ... that'll really bring the torque into the upper RPMs, I mean, lets face it: this engine wants to scream, but it's in a truck so DC designed it for torque:
a) it's a stroker.
b) it has a VERY torque oriented manifold
c) it has a very mild cam
d) two valves per cylinder
and DC tries to make the Jeep 4.7L more of a car engine with the HO Intake and Manifold.
So, what to do, what to do. My plan for now is to do some surgery on the stock manifold to try and get a dual stage manifold .. so it has the long runners at low RPMs, but opens up to shorter ones at higher RPMs.
I really think this engine has HUGE potential waiting to be unleashed .. I truly beleive Marty @KRC when he says to expect more than 300 rwhp all engine. Especially in the upper RPMs, this engine will scream! Now give us some real parts for it! What I'd really like to see are some multi-valve per cylinder heads, that'd wake this thing up in a hurry.
wholly crap that was long
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alex
Dodge Dakota
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10/16/2002
13:14:08
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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My torque peak was at 3700 +/- and the hp peak was at 4300 +/-..... I could e-mail you the graph if you want it.
Marty already has that 4.7 motor making 500 at the crank, all motor, BTW. If you take out 22% for the auto tranny (you'll need serious gears and a stall converter), you're looking at 390 rwhp at 7800 rpm. According to Marty. But the power band starts at a lofty 3800 rpm and you'll be shifting at 8000 rpm. Not for the faint of heart, and not for the street, if you axe me. Oh- and try multiple 500 hp launches on a 5-spd truck (mine) with a 3800 rpm clutch dump. Better start shopping for a Dana 60 with a spool.
BUTTT, I am already thinking about getting Marty to shorten the runners on my (currently unused) factory manifold, and then installing that with some Marty-ported factory heads and some Marty 206/218 cams, a 72 mm TB, and maybe some headers & a custom y-pipe..... then we'll see where that gets me. There's a few math problems to be worked out, and I suspect a trip (maybe two) down to Cocoa, Florida to a certain shop.
I just need a little money.....
I am now accepting donations. Thank You.
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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10/16/2002
13:22:16
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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wholly crap ... yeah 500hp would be nice, but how am I supposed to tow with that at 7000RPM.
I can't wait til he posts a dyno curve for that monster ... I wonder how much low end torque it does have.... as long as its more than stock (~240-250 just off idle), I'd take it. But I bet you'd sacrifice a lot of that.
If I was you ... I'd be thinking about a high-flow cat right about now. Unless you already have one, but your mod list didn't show it.
Sure, send me an email of your dyno sheet .. I know I've seen it before, but can't remember where. Do you want one of mine stock? or do you have one?
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alex
Dodge Dakota
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10/16/2002
13:44:50
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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I don't have a stock dyno graph, but yours will suffice.... I can compare the two.
Yeah, the 3" exhaust starts at the y-pipe and runs thru a 3" Carsound Cat and into the 3" DynoMax kit that i had originally. Without headers and a custom y-pipe, that's about as far as I can go. Although I've been having thoughts of trying another "turn-down in front of the axle" setup. I used to have one on my V-6 truck and it was buzz-my-brain hell to drive at 70 mph on the highway. But maybe the V-8 will be different. yeah. that's it. different. sure.
You've got mail, BTW.
Oh- the set-up I've got in mind won't be the 500 hp version. I am thinking along the 350 hp version with about 300 at the rear wheels. That'll do for a while. Then we'll look into forced induction.
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CW
GenIII
10/16/2002
14:34:34
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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Before you compare you dyno sheets to much. I think there is about a 3000+ elevation difference between you 2. Or am I wrong.
4.7 HO, CW style
2001 4.7 5sp 3.92 LSD
Ported 68mm TB, IAT adjuster, 3" flowmaster cat back, TPS @ .76V, 4" Z-tube, Roadmaster active suspention, Removed Third cat, Electric fan Convertion, HO cams, Robert shaw 180 therm, HO intake manifold.
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Canucker
Dodge Dakota
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10/16/2002
14:50:39
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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yeah .. agreed.
The elevation here is 3800' at the airport ... probably closer to 3500' where it was dyno'd. It was an open air dyno on a moderate day ... about 15*C (59*F) or so ... humidity and barometer weren't at any extreme that I can remember.
what were your conditions Alex?
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alex
Dodge Dakota
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10/16/2002
15:48:24
| RE: HO Parts G-Tech
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Well, uh, my dyno was in an open cell where it was raining & 80degF outside and we're at 1000 ft give or take.
Gosh, kinda makes me want to go make a second series of pulls now that it's sunny & 65 this afternoon. hahahahhaah
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