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19:10:23 - 07/05/2008
Off Topic
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Jimmyc
Dodge Dakota
9/04/2001
21:10:38
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 Subject: RE: gun control
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Message:
Comparing so called "assault weapons" to crime is like comparing apples to oranges. Collecting firearms should be compared to collecting jewelry. Married folks don't need $9000 wedding rings do they, but I'm not going to sit here and criticize anyone else's choice. I know I'm going to catch a lot of crap for those statements, but both are a large investment. Most so called "assault weapons" are more expensive than their hunting counterparts and a lot are less powerful. A pre-ban AR-15 goes for $1500-2500 with newer copies (Bushmaster etc.) about $600-700. Some of my old WWII era military arms are worth upwards of $3000. Most military type firearms today start at about $400-500. How many thugs do you know that are going to buy a large, very unconcealable, ten pound, $600 weapon to rob someone. If someone wants to modify a firearm to full auto let 'em do it, that's what jail and fines are for. I own a lot of guns and I'm no radical, I don't dig bomb shelters and all of my firearms are legal. I also hunt a lot and have several hunting guns. People that really don't know a lot about firearms should not talk about them like they do. It only makes them look ignorant to knowledgable "assault weapon" owners. By the way, anyone that does a lot of camping will tell you that the dehyd chicken-a-la king is one of the better tasting ones. I prefer the soups myself.
Law abiding, christian, conservative, educated, Gulf War veteran and moral gun owner that can spell well and keeps his firearms and ammo seperate and locked up in a safe.
01 QC 4.7 3.92LSD 4x4 5-speed
98 RC 3.9 2x4 auto
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Mar
Dodge Dakota
9/05/2001
13:54:36
| RE: gun control
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Message:
Good point. Im sick and tired of people talking uneducated.
I think the big guy in happy gilmors had the answer on his shirt. Guns dont kill people people kill people. A gun is a tool not a weapon. There are a lot of tools that can be used as a weapon. The goverment is attacking the responsable gun owners in hopes it will quiet down the uneducated city people that dont know anything.
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Mar
Dodge Dakota
9/05/2001
13:56:33
| RE: gun control
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Good point. Im sick and tired of people talking uneducated.
I think the big guy in happy gilmors had the answer on his shirt. Guns dont kill people people kill people. A gun is a tool not a weapon. There are a lot of tools that can be used as a weapon. The goverment is attacking the responsable gun owners in hopes it will quiet down the uneducated city people that dont know anything.
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MikeK
Dodge Dakota
9/05/2001
14:28:53
|  RE: gun control
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Message:
Yo! Mr. "Educated",
1.)"Good point" is not a sentence. It is a noun and adjective there is no verb or subject, therefore no sentence.
2.)An apostrophe is used to denote contractures, as in I am=I'm.
3.) It's speaking uneducated not talking uneducated. Speaking is what you say. Talking is how you talk, a subtle but important difference.
4.)It's responsible not reposponsable.
Now if Mar doesn't have the common sense to know that his representation of being educated is clearly a fraud. Can he be trusted with a gun? I mean even the army has a minimum IQ test.
Mike
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Mar
Dodge Dakota
9/05/2001
15:26:34
| RE: gun control
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All great points mike. Your really are a star!
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Mac10
Dodge Dakota
9/05/2001
19:38:12
| RE: gun control
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Mar, You need not say anymore. MikeK proved your point for you.
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GUNMAN
Dodge Dakota
9/06/2001
21:03:15
| RE: gun control
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WHen guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.
ANybody study history? Hitler made a speech announcing gun registration, confiscation, and outright ban of private ownership of firearms. He stated that the world would follow their lead into the future. In some aspects, he is right. Just look at UK and Australia. But recall that 6 million jews lost their lives due to the fact they and other "undesireables" were not allowed to own firearms.
Something to consider when chucky schumer, diane feinstine, and ted kennedy mouth off about "making streets safe again"
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Jacob
Dodge Dakota
9/06/2001
22:48:14
| RE: gun control
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One important fact that people fail to understand is that, your position on gun control is biased on where you live. In urban New Jesey for example who needs a gun? Thet answer criminals, plus the majority of them have never owned or fired a firearm for that matter. To them the only people who own guns are criminals that use them for the sole purpose of commiting crime.
Now look at the "southerner" lives in a semi-urban to urban society, but nothing compared to the "apartment style of the north". They were raised around firearms since childhood, gun safety is engraved into the bakc of there minds. Not only do they collect guns for sprting purposes, but some probably have some meaning to them as their dad gave it to them, etc.
Just my .02.
Just a thought: if you give your two cents, and someone pays you a penny for your thoughts, where does the other penny go?
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MikeK
Dodge Dakota
9/06/2001
22:54:31
| RE: gun control
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Now the Israeli's have all the guns and are oppressing the Palestinian's.
"WHen guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." By the way GUNMAN, REAL original. I bet you made up, "Only you can prevent forest fires." So when Neanderthals like you have all the guns who are you going to oppress??
What is it with you idiots that think that by saying that your educated or study something, then come off sounding like a moron, like nobody is going to catch on. "Anybody study history?" What is the incidence of gun related deaths in the U.K.? By the way Hitler gave guns to EVERYONE! It was called World War II! Sheesh, It's like whipping out a pencil d1ck and saying your John Holmes-A TRUE AMERICAN!!! But unlike the dictatorship that was presented to the German people under the guise of national socalism, we live in a stable representative democracy. Yea, let's give these fine representative of the human race some guns!
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Mac10
Dodge Dakota
9/07/2001
00:04:47
| RE: gun control
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Message:
MikeK,
Take a word of advice.
It is better for others to think you are a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
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Hawkeye
*GenIII*
9/07/2001
16:41:01
| RE: gun control
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Message:
I am still waiting.
While I am waiting, just a little food for thought. Why is it more morally acceptable for a woman to be laying dead in an alley, beaten, raped, and strangled with her own underwear, than for that same woman to be explaining to a police officer how the 3 holes got in her dead attackers chest??
Be careful how you answer.
'00 QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
33x12.50 Pro Comp X-T's
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MikeK
Dodge Dakota
9/07/2001
17:41:43
| RE: gun control
IP: Logged
Message:
Hawk your proposing an illogical hypothesis. Your assuming that the woman would be not raped if she owned a gun. However, in order for her to use the gun she would have had to have been carrying the gun, in a holster. She would have access to in enough time to keep the thug from carrying her off to the alley and do whatever. So, she would not only have to have a gun, but also have a permit to carry a conseled weapon and a gun belt in order to have access in time for it to do any good. This is not even a moral argument. I presuming that the argument you were trying to make in you own simple, yet overly dramatic way, is that this woman would not have been raped had she had a gun. I think she would have been better prepared with a minimum of self defense-you can rupture a testicle with 6 lbs of pressure-tryit some time. She also could have had some mace in her hand. She could have been more cautious in her activities. Have you ever been in NYC? people there know what's going on around them.
But this is my point, Your AR-15 was not made to kill deer, it was made to kill people, the rounds fired are made to tumble ant tear up as much human flesh as possible. How is this miserable excuse of an arguement where you exploit a rape victims suffering, going to promote you view on gun control! When your proposing that you only want your guns for hunting. Oh yea, you want to protect your family AND neighbors. Now you want to be the local vigilante. What if your neighbors don't want your protection. What if your neighbor's boning your wife. What if your neighbor's getting your kids stoned. What would it take for you to whip out your trusty AR-15 and go full metal jacket on them. Just let me understand your position: you want everone armed so you feel safer? Right? Or, do you just want the biggest gun on the block so you feel like more of a man? This is my position, I have no problem with hunting. I do however have a problem with this domestic mutually assured destruction theory that you folks seem to be proposing. I know humans are fallible, particularly those that claim to be infallible. Where is the line where you decide to put the law in your hands and your neighbors' life in jeopardy. If you say that there is no line. You are lying. By your own statement you have the gun to protect your family and neighbors. So no one better cross Hawkeye, 'cuz he's got the biggest gun in town! Who gave you the power of judgement, life, and death, over people. Jesus. The Republicans? The NRA? The reason that your thinking is so flawed is that your assuming, for your own conveinience that you know better then the system that is in place. You know better then the constitution, better then local, state, federal law enforcement. You know better then the entire judicial and legislative brance of the government. Yea, your a smart one Hawkeye. You want to protect your family? get a dog. You ever shoot a gun in my neighborhood I will do everything in my power to ensure that your prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
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Hawkeye
*GenIII*
9/07/2001
22:06:55
|  RE: gun control
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I am basing those statements of the woman being raped on 2 ACTUAL occurances right here. The woman who shot her attacker had her handgun in her purse. As he threw her to the ground and was trying to get his clothes and hers undone, she drew it in a split second and stopped him. Am I to feel sorry for him? Let me guess, she should have just complied with him and not resisted right. Just do what the attacker says. That would make it ok. Then he would have still been alive, she probably wouldnt thought, and might have gotten caught eventually and could have received some treatment and help and went on to live a productive life as a functional member of society. Sounds great. Tell it to her husband and 2 small kids. I am not making anything dramatic or exploiting anything. I am stating FACTS of EVERY DAY LIFE. I am not an ostrich with my head in the sand pretending that if I dont see it it really isnt there or it wont be as bad. I have seen it. It is there. It isnt pretty at all.
What is a gun belt? The belt I wear when carrying my gun (9 years now) is the same one I wear all the time. Does that make it a gun belt? Or does the term GUN BELT just sound more menacing? Ok, lets start with the facts again. The military uses Full Metal Jacket rounds because of
A. the Geneva convention and
B. because they are designed to WOUND not KILL enemy soldiers. By wounding and enemy soldier you take him and at least 1 to 2 others out of the fight to care for him.
I prefer soft points for hunting as full metal jackets are illegal to hunt with for that very same reason. Soft points and hollow points expand causing more trauma and quicker incapacitation. I use 62 grain ballistic tips for self defense for their even quicker expansion and incapacitation of an assailant and lack of over penetration which could cause injury to by-standers. I have had hand to hand and martial arts training. You obviously have never delt with a human being that was on drugs, extremely drunk, extremely determined, or mentally unstable (a psycho, not to be confused with mental retardation, etc.) or you would know that 99% of the time mace, pepper spray, and "rupturing a testicle" does not work on those people. They do not feel pain in the same way as a normal person. Crystal Methamphetamines, for example, give people a tremendous increase in strength and their bodies do not react to pain. That is why there have been cases of them being shot numerous times by a police officer and not being phased, only to be stopped when they either bleed to death standing on their feet or the officer (or person) makes a cranio-ocular (head) shot thereby disrupting the nervous system. Numerous police officers and people have been severly injured or killed by their attacker after he was shot numerous times and continued on attacking, with the attacker only to die later from their wounds. I am no vigilante. But I am not going to stand by and let myself, my family, my friends, a neighbor, or anyone be a victim to someone else if I can do something about it. Maybe you dont want to get involved. Maybe you dont have a problem standing by and watching someone be raped, robbed, maimed or killed but I do. Dont even think about saying thats what the police are for. The police by definition are a reactionary group. They respond AFTER a crime has been committed and then attempt to capture the offender. There is no conceivable way for them to stop a crime as it is happening. Not unless you are lucky enough to live somewhere that has a police officer standing on every single street corner. As for me having the biggest gun in town, actually my neighbors have some a bit bigger than mine as one does some big game hunting in the northwest and midwest. I dont know better than the constitution. I just know the constitution. When I was in high school we had to study it and then in the Army they were really big on us knowing it to for some reason. Years ago neighbors looked out for each other. Thanks to people like you, who dont want to get involved, that has gone away. I do have a dog. He is a German bred German Shepherd that I got when I was still at the Sherriffs office. Very nice companion. I value his life as much as I do my wife and kids. Jesus didnt give me the power over life and death, but he did give me the common sense to protect myself and my family. Do you think that gun owners just walk around waving their guns and taking pot shots all over town just for the heck of it?? I have a concealed carry permit as does my wife. We are both armed all the time. I would bet you a years pay that if you ever met us in person without knowing who we were, that you would never know we were armed unless we told you. You have watched way to much tv and have hollywood and the media's (they are very good at using menacing terms and words) perception of guns and gun owners. Those perceptions are completly wrong. So basically what you are saying is that if I were to be driving down your street and as your wife was getting into her car, someone grabs her from behind and throws her to the ground standing over her with a gun, or a knife, or even a baseball bat (very painful and brutal weapon by the way), and they didnt see me, and I were to stop that person, even if it meant shooting them to stop them from severly injuring or killing your wife, then you would try to have me prosecuted for firing my gun in your neighborhood? That would look great on the evening news. "PASSERBY SAVES WOMAN FROM CONVICTED RAPIST OUT ON EARLY RELEASE AND HUSBAND FILES CHARGES AGAINST MAN" Ok, be my guest. I wouldnt want to explain that one to the judge though. What would the charges be that you would see get filed against me? My weapon never sees the light of day in public except for situations such as that or something similar. Do you think that guns owners want to go around shooting people for things like littering, looking at them funny, flicking us off in traffic, or what?? My right to own a gun even protects your right to disagree with me. I dont care if you like guns. You dont have to like them at all. Thats your right. Its your right not to own one. But its my right TO own one. The line comes when you try to take away my right.
I am still waiting on an explanation for my earlier post. I think that I may be waiting a while though because as I said in it, more than one US REP and Senator have not been able to come up with anything. They admitted it themselves in both letters to me and in conversation.
'00 QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
33x12.50 Pro Comp X-T's
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Mac10
Dodge Dakota
9/07/2001
23:10:38
| RE: gun control
IP: Logged
Message:
Hawkeye,
Amen Brother.
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Dr.Q
Dodge Dakota
9/07/2001
23:12:44
| RE: gun control
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Message:
Hawk and Mike very interesting debate! However when I was in the marines the ball anti-personnel rounds and our training did not train us to wound they trained us to kill-Kill-KILL-c'mon an AR-15 for hunting?!! Don't beleive me get a cantalope and shoot it with a ball round.
Anyways my freind Moises was the armorer in our unit he used to steal and sell the sear pin from an M-16 to an gun civilian gun dealer. He showed me the difference between the two-one had a cam the other didn't. You pop out on and pop in the other.
I guess you and the missus are both cops. I don't know what state your from. My missus and I are both Doc's. We also have a responsibility to respond in emergencies.
I was raised with guns. In the marines learned to use M-60, M-1911,and the M-16A1. But after spending some time in the ER putting people togeter scumbags, Joe Citizens and Cops. I mean generally most folks that shot or got shot weren't licenced. But even a casual observer or todays society would have to admit that if everyone had a gun there would go the whole shooting match!(GOOD PUN Q!)
Anywho don't go getting your blood pressure too high or else! Strokes MIs YADA YADA!
Remember! Guns don't kill people! Doctors Kill People! (HO! Q'S ON A ROLL!)
Hasta la vista you two knuckle heads!
Your pal,
Dr.Q
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TigerDak
Dodge Dakota
9/07/2001
23:50:17
| RE: gun control
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Message:
I am glad that there are responsible, honest persons out there that own firearms in their homes. Here in the Mountain West, most people accept firearms and wouldnt live without them. Not everyone hunts on a regular basis, as I do, but just having one for yourself and your family is fine enough for me. I dont care what it is: a shotgun, .357, .22, 30.06, or pellet gun. They are a fun hobby and can be used for self defense if need be.
Hopefully that day won't ever come. But if it doesn, myself and my family will know how to use the firearms, where they are located in the house, in case they need to. It's too bad society has gotten so bad that criminals can get their weapons off the black market. Passing laws won't make them obey. THEY ARE CRIMINALS! They dont obey the law anyways. Passing laws wont work. Just like making drugs illegal hasnt worked; the criminals, thugs, and hoodlums can get their drugs off the street somewhere anyways. So my $.02 is the thugs arent going to obey the police and passively hand in their guns.
What we need is a country that submits itself to God and recognizes its dependence upon Him for protection and safety. A nation on its knees is more powerful than an atomic bomb or some other super weapon.
So have some faith and go to church!
;)
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MIkeK
Dodge Dakota
9/08/2001
02:46:03
| RE: gun control
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So first we arm all the Christian Conservatives, Then we give that pesky congress what fer! Just as long as all the decent responsible honest people are armed so we can fight of so we can defend our selves so we don't get murdered by a robber. In 1995, 123 people were murdered by a robber, in only 48 cases was the robber a stranger to the victim. If Hawk is a policeman he should know these stats. 48/260,000,000 actually Hawk your much much much (five times)(she's fourteen more times as likely tobe killed by you) more likely to get murdered by your wife, particularly if she owns a gun but of course you know this if your a cop. See the data for yourself. So if I were you dude I'd be much more worried that your old lady is gonna off you for the insurance then being killed by some crackhead stealing a vcr. see for yourself. http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/95cius.htm But, being a policeman you should know all this stuff. So if you know all this stuff, your just trying to use a bunch of bull$hit to justify the fact that you NEED guns to feel safe. Pretty sad man. Some people need a vet, some need a fast car (me), some need hair implant some get their johnson surgically enhanced. But a frankenweeny isn't going to kill my children.
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Hawkeye
*GenIII*
9/08/2001
07:48:25
| RE: gun control
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All this rambling and I still have no answers. The questions and points are still being avoided. To be honest, I really didnt expect answers. Your numbers are a little flawed. I could provide you with more accurate numbers directly from the FBI and DOJ but you wouldnt believe them anyway.
Doc, we in the Army were trained to "Kill, Kill, Kill" as well. However, 5.66 FMJ was not designed to do so. As stated, it was designed to wound. Yes I do use my AR to hunt with. What makes it so different than any other rifle chambered for a .223 )5.66mm? Its looks? Oh, I see, it shoots the same round but because it looks different or bad, it must be right? AH this gets funnier all the time. Racial profiling of guns! That gun looks bad so it must be bad. Boy, hope mine dont get up and run out of my safe while I am gone out of town today to see family and start shooting up a bus load of nuns or something.
Mike, I still support your right to disagree with me. :-)
'00 QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
33x12.50 Pro Comp X-T's
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Jimmyc
Dodge Dakota
9/08/2001
23:42:40
| RE: gun control
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Recently a friend at work had to shoot 2 pit bulls in his yard. When the dogs showed up in the area, a few times, he called animal control. They told him to shoot the dogs, that there was nothing they could do. On the way to his house, through the woods, they passed two housing developments full of kids. Turns out that the owner knew they were missing for about a week and she didn't tell anyone. She was afraid that she would be held liable if they hurt someone. My friend heard a scream out in the yard and looked out the window. The dogs were barrelling across the yard towards his daughter. He said he was going to grab his .38 revolver but instead grabbed the Ruger Mini-14 and a 20 round mag. When he came outside the dogs turned and started heading for him. The Mini-14 is a .223 rifle and was loaded with FMJ ammo. He had to shoot each dog 4 times, in the chest, because they were so vicious and they didn't stop coming literally until they were dead. When it was all over, he said about 10-15 seconds total, the dogs were laying about 5' from him. When they turned toward him they were about 40 yards away. Imagine if he had grabbed the .38 or an aluminum bat if he had no guns. Either he or his daughter probably wouldn't have made it. I don't know of anyone that can fight off 2 Pit Bulls with their bare hands. The dogs were found to not be rabid. I think his daughter NEEDED that particular gun to be safe. His so called useless "assault" rifle allowed for fast follow up shots that potentially saved his life. He wasn't going back inside with his daughter out there. Your "frankenweeny" might not kill your kids but a vicious dog definitely can and there is one in almost everyones neighborhood. Think about that one. This is a true story not fiction. Try to explain to your wife or child, in the ER, why you didn't NEED that gun and grabbed a stick instead. It might be your "sad" neighbor that comes over, to help in the situation, with his "assault rifle". You could always wait for the police. You can quote all the stats and data you want. As good as the "system" is there are time when the police response is just not fast enough. This is especially true in rural areas. Dogs don't obey laws on their own, neither do bears or any other wild animal. Personally I hope I never NEED my guns to protect myself or my family. If I do they're in the safe and that gives me peace of mind. By the way everyone with animals needs a vet. Jim.
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Hawkeye
*GenIII*
9/09/2001
09:42:48
| RE: gun control
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Jimmy, not the first time I have heard of a situation such as that. The whole "need" thing is like what I said earlier. Why do we "need" cars that can go 150 mph. I dont expect to ever get an answer on my earlier proposals as I havent in over 11 years yet. As you said, the anti gun crowd can quote all the stats and numbers they want, but that doesnt always equate to real life. I am an animal lover from the word go. I would defend my dogs from people or other animals just the same as my kids. I also take responsibility for them just as I do my kids. I make sure my dogs are trained and under control. I make sure they dont get out. If they did then it would be my responsibility. Luckily mine are very friendly, well, except if you try to come in the yard or the house uninvited or mess with the wife or kids. My Shepherd tends to get a little grumpy then. Sorry, getting off track. Its a mute point now I guess. I wont bother refuting any more arguments as its obvious that I am a frankenweeny and my wife is going to probably going to shoot me anyway. She probably will use one of my guns and not even use her own. If I help someone out then I am a vigilante. Boy, I sure wish my parents hadnt raised me to love my country, to help my neighbors, and to take responsibilty for my own actions. Dang them and that patriotic christian conservative upbringing.
Jimmy, good thing that guy doesnt live in Mikes neighborhood or Mike would probably have had him thrown in jail for saving his childs life because he (gasp) used, and even fired, a gun, an evil "assault" rifle (double gasp) at that. Bet the judge would have gave him 10 to 20 for that.
Its a wonder that when he fired it, that completely mindless in-animate hunk of steel didnt go flying out of his hands down to the local shopping center and start mowing people down.
Guess we wont ever see Dan Rather even reporting on situations like your guy saving his child on the evening news. Guess thats not sensational enough for the media.
I rest my case. Hawkeye has left the building. (in his armor plated Hummer)
'00 QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
33x12.50 Pro Comp X-T's
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GUNMAN
Dodge Dakota
9/09/2001
09:50:45
| RE: gun control
IP: Logged
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Mike K I have a suggestion. SInce you obviously are one of the most clueless pencil whipped idiots around, why don't you simply pack up and move to someplace where you can place total faith in the government for your protection? Matter of fact, I'll gladly donate whatever $$$ it takes to give you a good send off.
You are obviously a liberal moron of the highest order not to mention a d*ckhead to boot. Hitler disarmed the German population, the jews, the slavs, and any other group that did not fit the Nazi definition of "pure race" Looks like you must have dozed through your history classes. Anyway once the Nazis disarmed the masses, they had nothing to fear. So Hitler, according to your warped and idiotic analysis, did not "give guns to everybody". Only the SS and Gestapo were allowed to possess firearms. ANd despite Hitler announcement that a "civilized nation has full gun registration", Nazi Germany has gone done in history and one of the most uncivilized nations of all time. Can you name any other country that built concentration camps soley for the extermination of entire races of people?
You threatened Hawkeye by saying if he shoots a gun in your neighborhood, you will prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law. How original of you! Your mind is so advanced that your going to throw a tantrun just because someone disagreed with you. Awwwww, just like a liberal. Thanks for showing your true colors.
By the way, any time you want to prosecute me, come on over so I can shove my foot up your a**.
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Hawkeye
*GenIII*
9/09/2001
10:10:57
| RE: gun control
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Sorry, couldnt help myself. Had to come back one more time. Hadnt quite got the door closed behind me good.
Mike, there were more than 123 people killed in robberies around the country last year. Almost that many in Florida alone. The victims knew virtually none of the assailants. Gunman is right about Hitler. You cant dispute History. As to earlier references to the UK and Australia, ask anyone who lives there. Their murder rates are much higher now than before they banned guns. So are most other crimes. That sure makes the people there feel safer.
'00 QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
33x12.50 Pro Comp X-T's
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MikeK
Dodge Dakota
9/09/2001
10:57:15
| RE: gun control
IP: Logged
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1.)JimmyC You expect me to beleive that! As the dogs were barrelling towards his daughter he not only had the time to pick the appropiate weapom and just happend to have an unlocked ruger mini-14 and a load 20 round magazine handy. AND had to shoot each dog in the chest 4 times! A dog running at full tilt can do 100 yars in about 8 seconds so he must have gotten these shot in a little over three seconds. Who is this guy Lee Harvey Oswald! All this in under 10-15 second I don't know but sounds inplausable. More likely, the dog came onto his yard and he was waiting fo them. My first thought would have been to get my daughter in the house. These must have been super wall piercing dogs! What's to keep this from happening again? Was the owner proscecuted? Was the amimal control commishonor fired? I seriously doubt that they would not come and tell you to shoot the animals. If it sounds like bs it probly is bs.
2.)Hawkeye, you and I brother, have opposing views on this issue-thats OK. I'm not going to change your mind I'm not going to chang yours-regardles of the lengths of our posts.HA! If you want repeat "The question.", or not.
3.)Ben (GUNMAN). I love this country! I do put my faith in the government. It semms, my freind that you don't. You might want to consider your options. As for me my family came here looking for a better life. There is no better life than an American life. The constitution is what makes this country great-It knows it isn't perfect and leaves room for ammendment.
Hitler regime did not come to power by taking the guns away from the masses, he was voted in! In the larger picture (if your capabable of grasping such a concept) a vote is a much greater tool for social reform than a gun can ever be. Its no secret that I'm liberal proud to be. How else are you reactionary right winger going to be kept in line. What galls you, is that you know that your gun has no bearing on changing things, my vote does.
"By the way, any time you want to prosecute me, come on over so I can shove my foot up your a**."
This confuses me. Why would you feel compell to put you foot in my a$$. I wouldn't be prosecute you the DA would. Whatever sexual proclivities you entertain is your buisness foot/butt sex whatever.
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Hawkeye
*GenIII*
9/09/2001
11:29:07
| RE: gun control
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Again the issues are avoided though. Not trying to change your mind. Just pointing out facts. I have magazines loaded for every firearm in my house. They are supposed to be loaded. Rule #1 of firearm safety, Treat all guns as if they are loaded. Why? Because they are supposed to be. Just like a car is supposed to have gas in it. Not any good if it doesnt. Yes those shots are very attainable. Could have been even faster if he had used a rifle in a larger caliber, more accurate, better trigger pull, etc etc. Didnt say all 4 hits were made with the dogs in a full tilt run either. Hitler was voted in, but could not be voted out because he controlled everything and the people had no way to fight back. It was either follow him or be killed. The vote is a very powerful tool indeed. Thats another thing that the Second Amendment protects that the Govt cant take away. Like I said. You have every right to not like or even own a gun. Just as I have a right to like them and own them. Not trying to change your mind, just pointing out some incorrections in what the media and anti gun crowd would have people believe. I will leave it alone for now.
'00 QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
33x12.50 Pro Comp X-T's
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GUNMAN
Dodge Dakota
9/09/2001
12:03:04
| RE: gun control
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Mike K you make me laugh. You're calling me reactionary when you lit into Hawkeye accusing him of "wanting the biggest gun town"......who's being reactionary here?
You honestly believe Hitler was "voted" into power? Wow, if you believe he was "elected" in the same manner we elect our officials, I have some ocean property in Montana you might be interested in. Typical of liberals, there ain't nothing that the government can't solve. Hmm just like ruby ridge, waco, yup the government sure is building a good track record here.
Am I supposed to quake and shake because you are going to set the DA upon me? Re read your first point above to JimmyC....was the animal control commissoner fired? See, you turn to government for solutions.
Finally, the rest of us reactionaries needs guns because the crimminal justice system has failed because people like you have been in charge of it for the last 35 years or so. In other words, don't punish the crimminal too much, it might hurt his self esteem.
Reminds me of a debate I had with a feminazi in college: SHe hated guns, said no one but the government and the police need them. I asked her why, she said because too many people are being killed with guns. ANd it broke her heart to see these poor innocent children being "gunned down" by a right wing reactionary. In the next sentence, she said she would always vote for a presidential candidate that supported abortion!
Again, typical liberal psychobabble. Its bad when a child dies from a gun, but its ok to have a doctor suck an unborn child out the birth canal because having a kid might "inconvenience" the mother.
And, Switzerland has mandatory gun ownership and mandatory military service for ALL citizens. Last time I checked, crime is not a problem there.
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Jimmyc
Dodge Dakota
9/10/2001
19:37:34
| RE: gun control
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Well, I'll tell you, number 1 it's not BS. If I had to compare this gentleman to a person it would be Ned Flanders from the Simpsons. He's very religious, has never smoked, never drank a drop and doesn't let his kids watch any violent shows on TV. Not your typical uneducated lunatic gun owner, huh? Not your typical lier either. Second, his house happens to adjoin the property I hunt on. He is also a good friend. He has the ID tags for these two dogs. Animal control told him remove them so he could give them to the owner if she comes by. She hasn't as I'm guessing she doesn't want to face him. Nobody from Animal Control was fired or punished. There's only one Animal Control officer for our entire county and the state doesn't allow him to be armed. The police were consulted and they told him charges couldn't be brought against the owner because the dogs didn't actually bite anyone. Guess he should have waited a few seconds before he took the first shot, but only an idiot would do that. I asked him today and happens that the Mini is in a locked case with a full mag, which is not in the rifle. He keeps this in the bedroom which is close to the back door. He showed me the rifle. As he only has a few guns, he chooses to use this one or the .38 for home defense and can get to either in a few seconds. His daughter ran to the house when the dogs turned on him. As he was part way out in the yard, the dogs would have been on him before he made the door. His wife was in the house watching and has verified all of this to be correct, to me, personally. In fact she told me they were coming, mouth open, and all she could see was jagged teeth. She said she had never seen anything like it. When they were hit they didn't even yelp, they just stumbled a little and kept coming. He fired 4 of the shots just after they turned. A vicious animal, full of adrenaline, is not to be underestimated. I've been with him at the range before and can vouch that he's an excellent shot. I have a Mini-14 myself and can probably get off ten accurate rounds in about 3 seconds. They might not be dead on but they'll be close. People are quick to believe anything they see on the news, lord knows they always tells the truth unbiased. They are slow however to believe the TRUTH when it doesn't agree with what they believe. It's anyone's choice whether they wish to own firearms or not. It's also their choice to say whatever they want. Both are guaranteed by the Constitution and I don't want to see either go away. I've travelled to a lot of foreign countries in my life. You can't truly appreciate what you have until you see others that don't. I've personally seen the result of no free speech or gun ownership. Trust me you don't ever want to see that here.
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Jacob
Dodge Dakota
9/11/2001
16:40:39
| RE: gun control
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Hawkeye, Gunman amen!
I am personally say that I know the experience of having a rabid dog come after you, thankfully I just so happened to have my 30-30 in my hand, just got done hunting, needless to say he didnt make it to me, as for with the mini-14, which correct me if I am wrong is a .22 caliber rifle? I can see easily how you could fire 4 shots or even 10 shots for a semi-auto. The difference between an AR-15 and other .22 caliber rifles is the actual casing, where as a Ruger 10/22 long rifle is only about an inch. The AR-15s is closer to two inches if not bigger. This provides a much higher muzzle velocity and range.
MikeK let me guess? Liberal Democrat? If the government can solve everything, why do 1/3 of homicide cases never get solved?
I agree with Hawkeye completly and since I am not 21 and can't take the class to be certified to carry a concealed weapon, I will promise you that I will.
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Hawkeye
*GenIII*
9/11/2001
21:03:22
|  RE: gun control
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Well Mike, I guess you were right. We are all nuts because Apocoliptic Catastrophe's dont EVER happen here and we are all just paranoid. I mean after all, the govt, military, and police will protect us from everything and everyone. We dont have to worry.
'00 QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
33x12.50 Pro Comp X-T's
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GUNMAN
Dodge Dakota
9/11/2001
22:35:16
| RE: gun control
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Hey Mike, where was your trusty government today? Maybe they need you to be in charge huh? Uh, is is possible to prosecute a nut like bin laden? Do you recommend I call his mother & have her put away for raising a bag of sh^t like him? Or should I call the DA and get the ball rolling or do you want that honor?
Looks like 8 years of Clintonism have left us with our pants down.
However, I doubt that your faith in government has wavered on iota.
BTW, folks I did something today that is sure to piss liberals off.
I bought ammunition and took the initiative for my own defense! What a concept!
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Hawkeye
*GenIII*
9/12/2001
08:54:25
| RE: gun control
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Cleaned all mine last night. Loaded a few extra mags. If the world or terrorist want a fight then fine. I am willing to give them one. I'm sure there are 1 or 2 other Americans who feel the same. Dont think for 1 sec that there is no way that you couldnt have a terrorist gunman in your town. Very slim chance yes, but yesterdays events were slimmer.
Maybe we should ban knives and box cutters now. Obviously they are weapons of mass destruction and the weapon of choice for terrorist.
'00 QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
33x12.50 Pro Comp X-T's
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TigerDak
Dodge Dakota
9/12/2001
12:09:30
| RE: gun control
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Let's pass some laws making hijacking illegal. That should stop this from ever happening again.
It is obvious here that we cannot rely on the federal gov't to protect us from the bad guys: foreign or domestic. I believe that it is necessary for individual US citizens to have some protection for themselves. This is why I believe in the 2nd Ammendment - to allow individual US citizens to protect themselves, whether it be against its own gov't, foreigners, or domestic violence. Its unfortunate that weapons fall into the wrong hands, however.
But in the mean time, I'm gonna do whatever I can to protect myself, my family, friends, relatives, and my neighbor.
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TigerDak
Dodge Dakota
9/12/2001
12:14:39
| RE: gun control
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Let's pass some laws making hijacking illegal. That should stop this from ever happening again.
It is obvious here that we cannot rely on the federal gov't to protect us from the bad guys: foreign or domestic. I believe that it is necessary for individual US citizens to have some protection for themselves. This is why I believe in the 2nd Ammendment - to allow individual US citizens to protect themselves, whether it be against its own gov't, foreigners, or domestic violence. Its unfortunate that weapons fall into the wrong hands, however.
But in the mean time, I'm gonna do whatever I can to protect myself, my family, friends, relatives, and my neighbor.
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Skyknight
Dodge Dakota
11/23/2001
10:42:23
|  RE: gun control
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Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, Inc.
P.O. Box 270143
Hartford, WI 53207
Phone (262) 673-9745
Fax (262) 673-9746
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The $200 Machine Gun
Commentary by Richard W. Stevens, Esq.
Ever heard of the 18th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution?
The 18th Amendment, ratified on January 16, 1919, made it illegal to make, transport, or sell alcoholic beverages anywhere in the United States. January 16, 1920, marked the beginning of the 13-year social experiment called Prohibition.
Americans who learned nothing from the Prohibition experience now heedlessly seek laws that prohibit the sale, possession and use of firearms. Gun prohibitionists don’t realize that their policies will backfire.
During the Prohibition era, organized crime grew to supply the popular demand for alcohol. Illegal liquor suppliers became rich, organized and powerful. Criminal syndicates competed with one another ... by intimidation, arson, mayhem and murder.
Government efforts to enforce Prohibition clogged the courts and jammed the jails. Because the criminal syndicates were so rich, they were able to corrupt many law enforcement officers, prosecutors and judges.
If America embraces Gun Prohibition, then black market gun makers, importers and sellers will be the billionaires of the next century. Organized crime will inherit an unparalleled growth industry.
How would this occur? If common sense and morality fail in America, if the Constitution and Bill of Rights are shredded by politicians and buried by public apathy, if our unalienable rights are lost and all legal guns are confiscated, then three things will happen.
First, violent and property crimes will increase, because the victims will mostly be disarmed and unprotected. Second, the black market will respond by supplying firearms to people who don’t want to be victims of the crime wave. Third, people will organize to defend themselves against the criminals -- they will form citizen militias.
As with alcohol Prohibition, the gun laws won’t matter as much as money and power and corruption. Everybody who wants a gun will be able to get one.
Prohibition did not stop the consumption of alcohol for one very practical reason: Anybody can make booze. Consider that in 1928-1929, Federal agents seized more than 62,500 stills. That number counts only the makers who got caught -- thousands of others escaped detection.
The same is true for firearms. Any person handy with common tools can make a fully automatic weapon. Philip A. Luty wrote a book entitled Expedient Homemade Firearms: The 9mm Submachine Gun (Paladin Press, (800) 392-2400) which shows exactly how to do it. Mr. Luty proved it by making a working machine gun. The British government jailed Mr. Luty last year just because he built a test model.
When Gun Prohibition comes, black market gun factories will spring up, both here and overseas. Gangster money will flow into the gun industry, just as it does for the illicit drug business. As during Prohibition, anyone who wants the product will be able to get it.
Prohibition bootleggers did not make low-alcohol wine and beer. Usually, they made hard liquor. (A simple still makes pure alcohol from grain, for example.) Making weaker products wasted resources. Buyers wanted more bang for their alcohol buck, and it’s safer and easier to transport smaller quantities of stronger spirits.
With Gun Prohibition, black market manufacturers won’t bother with .22 caliber rifles. They will build and sell high- power rifles and easily concealable pistols. If all guns are illegal, then making the more desirable and more powerful 9mm full-auto will be just as risky as making a .22 revolver. Fully automatic weapons will become plentiful and relatively cheap. Based on materials cost and labor, the full-auto rifle might sell on the black market for about $200.
The gun prohibitionists, like the 1920's Prohibitionists, would not just fail. Their policies would produce a new era of organized crime and corruption, an upsurge in violent and property crimes, and -- shocking to gun phobes -- the $200 machine gun in the hands of private citizens.
We Americans must choose the morally correct path: We must destroy "gun control." We must not be forced to buy firearms from criminals. Learn how to destroy "gun control" by contacting JPFO today.
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[ JPFO Home > Common Sense > The $200 Machine Gun ]
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© 1999 JPFO < webmaster@jpfo.org >
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Knobbyman
GenIII
11/25/2001
10:00:12
| RE: gun control
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Hum... he disappeared when it got interesting .. That’s a shame. NO I HATE ENGLISH DONT CORRECT ME fragments... I like fragments :) Anyway I just wanted to point out how the numbers stand so far.. 1 person wanting to ban firearms.. and somewhere around 5 thinking it's our constitutional right to own and carry firearms. Btw w/ my 22-250 bolt action I can fire off 4 rounds @ 100 yards in under 5 seconds in a 1-1/4" group. With a semi-auto that would be so much easier especially if it was open sights. I'll make a video for any of you that don't believe me. *a little rusty right now b/c my dad took my gun to go ....... hunting GAH!! Not hunting*
Basically I don't care if people aren't going to support guns but don't try to take them away from us. I can't remember the case but the Supreme Court decided that we are allowed to own and carry guns. I'll get more information when I find the article again. It was in something like *Out Door Life* or *American Hunter*
Basically I don't care if people aren't going to support guns but don't try to take them away from us. I can't remember the case but the supreme court decided that we are alowed to own and carry guns. I'll get more information when I find the article again. It was in something like *Out Door Life* or *American Hunter*
'01 Graphite QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
http://www.knobbyman.com
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TigerDak
Dodge Dakota
11/25/2001
12:37:44
| RE: gun control
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If the liberals were to really get aggressive and actually make the attempt to take firearms away from the honest law abiding citizens, I am still waiting to hear exactly HOW that would happen. Are they going to knock on your front door of all the 100 million homes? Are they going to drive up and down the street with loud megaphones expecting people to simply give them up and hand them over? I have never heard of an actual plan that would accomplish such a task. All it seems to be is hot air mixed with a vain hope.
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Hawkeye
*GenIII*
11/25/2001
12:48:45
| RE: gun control
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No they want to take them inconspicuously. One at a time. By making it too expensive to buy parts when something breaks, by making it too much of a pain to buy one, by making it too expensive to own one, etc. Little things that lots of people will never see coming.
'00 QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
33x12.50 Pro Comp X-T's
http://johnammons.tripod.com/home.html
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Knobbyman
GenIII
11/25/2001
13:56:07
| RE: gun control
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Look @ Canada .. it's already starting.
Something like $50 per firearm to register it. lol how many guns do each of you have? *Looks in gun safe* I've got something over 10 I know I don't want to spend $500 to register all those.
Hawkeye. I once thought about what if EVERYONE who legally owned a gun had to take the concealed handgun course? That would make all of us smarter or at least know how to handle a gun before buying one. Then for those of us who want to carry make a real course. Real life situations w/ pop ups and such. Heh I'd take a course like that just because it'd be fun. But that's just my idea.
'01 Graphite QC 4x4
4.7 3.55 LSD
http://www.knobbyman.com
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Joe Dirt
Dodge Dakota
11/27/2001
20:54:38
| RE: gun control
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Hey, Mikey! This Paramedic says, 200,000 people a year in this country are killed or injured in vehicle accidents. Many of them innocent folks who never thought it would happen to them. In my line of work , 3 years now, I've only responded to 5 shootings. I cant count the number of MVA's I've rolled on. so I ask you. Whats the bigger problem facing us today? being killed In an accident? or having someone shoot you. Now I want you to think about that as you hop into you're truck tomorrow to go for a drive, to work, whatever, and ask yourself honestly. What are the chances of getting shot today? BTW, I work in a busy Metro county. Fulton Co. GA. Oh, beforeI forget, Mike, Your'e a politicians wet dream come true. --had to throw that in there---
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TigerDak
Dodge Dakota
11/27/2001
21:30:31
| RE: gun control
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Understanding firearm ownership is very simple. There are bad guys in this world, and I'm all about protecting myself and family the best I can.
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Python97
Dodge Dakota
11/28/2001
16:46:33
| RE: gun control
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Ill keep it short and sweet. Guns dont kill people, bullets kill people. Also cars kill people,cancer kills people just about everything kills people. So everyone should go live in their house with the shades down and be scared. If people want to own guns, like myself then let them. There are people that get in their cars and run people down for fun. What should we do with the automobile? Its human nature for people to complain about what they dont like. I say to bad live with it. I wil get rid of my guns when I know that all the criminals have none. (yea rite) We should get rid of knives too while were at it. So much for short, I think it was sweet. Send all complaints to > UPYOURA$$@tobad.com
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